that in the prodigal son story the father is displeased with the son who lives by the book, does everything "right", goes to church every time the doors are open, votes for justifiably endorsed candidates, drinks only certain beverages, wears acceptable clothing, embraces (and scorns) everything a decent person "should", surmises he is aligned with his father's view toward things?
And so I wonder why there is such a glut of churches who teach, herald and embrace "right" living. Why so many say that living by the book and staying between the lines equates to favor in Father's eyes, and "righteousness".
This helps me digest why I find myself shunning that type of life, and why I am more and more embracing and savoring the unrefined, unpolished, unprofessional, unbecoming, raw, dirty, suspicious, scorned and scandalous people and things around me.
They are beautiful.
And no wonder when people scorn the unrefined, unbecoming, raw, dirty, suspicious, scandalous things about me.
"If then you have died in Jesus to material ways of looking at things and have escaped from the world's crude and elemental notions and teachings of externalism, why do you live as if you still belong to the world? [Why do you submit to rules and regulations?--such as] do not handle [this], do not taste [that], do not even touch [them], referring to things all of which perish with being used.
To do this is to follow human precepts and doctrines. Such [practices] have indeed the outward appearance [that popularly passes] for wisdom, in promoting self-imposed rigor of devotion and delight in self-humiliation and severity of discipline of the body, but they are of no value in checking the indulgence of the flesh (the lower nature). [Instead, they do not honor God but serve only to indulge the flesh.]" (Colossians excerpt)
14 comments:
Brian, I'm really curious why you say "we can't see into people's hearts. God can, we can't".
How is it that Jesus' ministry revolves around the heart, and as we follow in His footsteps we are unable to do the same?
You make reference to the story of Annanias and Sapphira, where Peter discerns the lying b.s. in their hearts. How can he do that, when Followers can't see into people's hearts?
You also commented on MJ's blog, "in the small glimpse of your heart that I have seen thus far, it seems clear to me that the Lord is redeeming the pain you have suffered in life."
How did you see into MJ's heart, Brian, when you are telling me "we can't see into people's hearts. God can, we can't"?
You're speaking out of both sides of your mouth.
But it's really not surprising to hear this kind of talk and ambiguity.
The Church today doesn't give a rip about the heart, and that well could be why you're confused in talking about it.
Jesus talks about the heart quite a bit, but the Church does not.
The Church talks about behavior modification, sin management, how much can God make people's lives speedbump-free, and how stiff a boner is attainable during "praise & worship" time.
I also am failing to see your point in quoting a bunch of verses about Kumbaya Jesus.
People who trumpet Kumbaya Jesus are a dime a dozen. I don't need any dimes, thanks for offering.
You reference a "kingdom of love". Never heard of it. What is that?
Brian, I think these are fair questions. The truth you have brought up is something so vital. This is such an important thing to grasp about God, and about walking with him. "Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart." And yet, you claim that you, a mere man, have looked at the heart. And I believe you.
I have, too. And this is a great responsibility.
A few weeks ago in our house, some friends were over for Sunday morning breakfast. I suggested that we all answer these two questions.
What would you love for God to say about you?
...and...
What would you hate for God to say about you?
At first, we got the religious answers, "I would love to hear God say, 'Well done, good and faithful servant.'", etc.
But as it kept going around the table, our hearts got stirred, and before we were through, everyone had tears in their eyes.
I would hate for God to say, "You aren't even worth my time."
I would love for God to say, "Can I spend some time with you? because I just enjoy being with you"
I would hate for God to say, "You're so stupid. You can never get it right."
I would love for God to say, "I could never leave you--you're my girl."
Stuff like that. Stuff of the heart. And brother did I see everyone's heart. And it's a great responsibility. Because what am I going to do with that information? Manipulate people? Tug their heart strings? Or will I use it to call them out into their fears? Will I speak the truth about God to them that most deeply matters to them as individuals? Will I confront them when they're just reacting from their pain and their fears? Will I stand beside them when they're falling apart and I know exactly the reason why?
And even for the people who don't offer their heart, even the ones who totally try to bullshit me and everyone (and sometimes they do), what happens when I see their heart? Again I feel the weight of this. Because I can just lay into them and call them for what they are (and sometimes I really am right on the mark about them). Or I can rest, and let God deal with them (and me) later.
I am a peacemaker. I want there to be peace not only within the church, but between the church and all people. All religions.
But does that really mean never judging anything?
Jesus said, "Stop judging by mere appearances and make a right judgment." Maybe he too would say, "It's all about the heart".
Brian,
You spent the first 1/3 of your original post saying we humans are divinely prohibited from seeing into others' hearts. "God can, we can't. Its one of those really important differences between Him and us."
Then you mention Peter seeing into Annanias & Sapphira's hearts, and I quote you from another blog where you talk about your seeing into someone else's heart.
That is double-speak. You now say that what I did is an "accusation"? How is that?
The truth is we can see into other people's hearts. Sometimes it happens supernaturally by a word of knowledge or prophecy, much more commonly it takes place via ongoing intercourse among people. (And this is not something that happens only by or among followers of Jesus.)
There are people who see into my heart, and there are people whose hearts I see into. It is no secret. It is no mystery. It happens all the time. It is not something we are divinely prohibited from being able to do, contrary to your statement that it's a God-only thing.
So yes, your spending a decent portion of your comment saying something is not doable or attainable, when it is easily doable and happens all the time, that's not going to go unchecked.
So go ahead and whine about me not welcoming your input. You expect that nonsense you said to be left on the table as Truth?
It's too bad you don't know your own heart. You should be able to know why you do what you do, based on your soliloquy. I don't understand why you try to dumb down our ability to understand of ourselves with false humility, with all that "a billion years from now" stuff.
And no, I was not being sarcastic in wondering what a "kingdom of love" is. I am familiar with the kingdom Jesus speaks of, and I have no reference to a "kingdom of love". And just to make sure, before I posted that I went and did a "kingdom of love", "kingdom love", "kingdom, love" search on biblegateway.
The kingdom is talked about plenty. Duh. Where and when is it talked about and/or described as a "kingdom of love", Brian? Nowhere. And yes, I question and call on the carpet any form of Christianese psychobabble I come across. (Gasp! You just saw into my heart! Don't tell anyone. It'll blow your theory.)
You had the audacity to challenge some of my ideas? When did you do that?
I wrote a post about the supposed "good" son in the Prodigal story, who displeased his father though he was doing everything "by the book". I then commented that in my life I am finding myself more and more intrigued and interacting with people more like the prodigal son.
Your comment was:
"It's about motives. We can't see people's hearts. It's unachievable by us, God will someday sort things out. Love our enemies. Love without judgment. Pray for those who use you.
Be still and know that I am God, I will be exalted... ???
Blessed are the peacemakers. ???
God can do what He wants when He's ready. ???
Annanias and Sapphira (your own counterpoint to your first point)
We should be meek. (wtf???)
The 'kingdom of love' (never heard of this. Familiar with Jesus talking about the kingdom. Recall Jesus talking about the Kingdom in terms of violence, Luke 16, never heard of it remotely referred to as 'kingdom of love'.)"
Ding, ding, ding! Christianese babble alert. Ask guest to explain. Ding, ding, ding!
Ding, ding, ding! What are all these verses and dross about "don't judge", "peacemakers", "demonstrate meekness"?
I left this out of my first reply for brevity's sake. I don't give a flying shit about those Kumbaya Jesus verses:
You quote "don't judge", my bible reads we are to judge.
You quote "blessed are the peacemakers", my bible reads "there's a time to love and a time to hate".
You quote "love your enemies", my bible reads "to some show mercy; snatch others from the fire; to others show mercy mixed with fear". Your quote only addresses 1/3 of the time, what about the other 2/3 of the people, 2/3 of the time?
You say "demonstrate meekness", which is not a verse, nor any type of directive, instruction, charge, counsel or admonition to Followers anywhere. (Meekness appears in the entire bible once, and meek only appears five times [only twice in the NT].)
So yeah, dude, you are slinging all kinds of Mr. Rogers verses and make-believe stuff around, when there is a helluva a lot more to the bible and to F/S/HS than that.
You went ape nuts spouting soft, mellow, docile, placid verses...for what? It was rather unclear, but the best one could think from seeing how frenzied you were in quoting them is that you are espousing that we/I/us/all should by default be meek and unassuming...about what? I really don't know. About the prodigal son story? About the Church? About the tares growing alongside the wheat? About the fact we can't see into hearts?
It's really indeterminable. And so I just wrote your vers- frenzy off to yet another in a long line of people who just sling verses at me and think doing so is (a) of God, (b) "sowing seeds", (c) somehow "taking a stand", or (d) worth a fucking shit.
Got news for you, friend, the correct answer is (e) none of the above.
And that is what I meant by a dime a dozen, of which I need none. I've abso-fucking-lutely had it with this widespread false assumption that Jesus, the Way, or life is by default placid or serene. (Glimpse into my heart number two.)
So again, I do not understand how your comment really challenged my post. What were you challenging? That you think those who live "by the book" are stainless and please Father? That I should not be embracing the unrefined, unbecoming, raw, dirty, scandalous people I come across? That they are not beautiful or worth the time of a Follower?
What exactly did you challenge, Brian?
And spare me on your putting words in my mouth when you say I "don't welcome your input". When I replied to you I asked you questions. Asking questions invites a response. Asking questions bids further discussion. Asking questions says "I want to know more".
My reply to you was "Brian, I don't understand", "Brian, please clarify", "Brian, this is ambiguous", and I asked in multiple ways for you to further yourself. Numerous things needed to be called on the carpet instead of given the silent treatment, and they were.
So go ahead, insinuate that I'm an ogre and told you to get lost, when the truth is I invited you back to clarify some very cloudy things you said, much of which I think is bullshit.
Maybe you're just in a tiff because I didn't engage you, and am not engaging you, in that all too-common, mamby pamby, false humility, deceptively deferring, Dale Carnegie language which most Followers engage in when they disagree on things.
You don't like the way I go straight to the point? Fine. But don't sit here and paint yourself as a martyr when I didn't kill you. I invited you back.
I invited you, point blank, to explain your ambiguity, and you twist that into he kicked me to the curb, "I'm not welcome here". Suit yourself.
And I asked you more questions in this post, inviting you back again. How are you going to interpret my doing that?
When I invited you back the first time that was "you're unwelcome here", and my inviting you back here now a second time is "he said my grandmother has holes in her underwear"?
Finally, what are you apologizing to me for? You apologized for "challenging my ideas". (What's up with all this false humility, man?) I have said in this post, in detail, how I read your original comment, and that I do not understand what and how you have challenged anything.
You mentioned trying to be gentle and respectful. Fine. I'll tell you this. Your second post was a lot more real than your first one, and it was a lot less gentle and respectful. That's pretty cool, isn't it? (Doh! How dare me put another hole in the swiss cheese of the gentle-Jesus paradigm. Damn me.)
If you care to look around this blog any it is very raw, unrefined and shoot straight from the hip. You don't have to answer these additional questions I've asked further, nor come back. You're welcome to, yet I'll sleep very well regardless.
I'm not you and you're not me, and I'm never going to tell anyone how to be. I know for absolute sure there is at least one gentle person who reads my blog regularly. They are as gentle and as pure as they come. They don't comment a lot, but they are as good and as gentle as God makes people.
As if you would care, my pain began two years ago, and took a huge spike up a year ago. Anything from April '06 forward in my blog conveys the idea. No harm, no foul, man.
Wow.
This seems to be shaping up into a proper squall.
I feel like I could be the referee or something. But for the life of me I can't figure out what the argument is over, or who's going towards which end zone.
The amazing thing is that there is so much truth underneath all this...(sarcasm? bravado? rant? rage?). Maybe you guys could just get together sometime, beat the crap out of each other for a while until it's out of your system, and then get back to the conversation.
LOL
God has postioned my parenting in such a way as to see into this story. I have two sons. I love them both. My first son I sent to a charter school. It was very free form, low structure, etc. I thought this was a great learning environment. They had different kids, different backgrounds and lots of freedom to explore. He hated it. When he's have a bad day he would come home and I would say "honey, why are you so upset?" "Because, mommy today so and so wasn't following the rules." Even now that he goes to conventional school, every time there is a substitute, he hates it...with passion. He loves rules and structure and being a good kid.
Now my second son...This child has rule teflon coating. No matter how many times you tell him, he could care less. This afternoon, I went to go lay down. He knew I was there in the next room trying to sleep. What does he do? He sits outside my bedroom door with some sort of tin container banging it non stop over and over and over.Now I am asleep and hear banging and get up and he just has this little imp grin on his face...he loves to get my goat. he bought my goat 20 times already. If there is a little crack or crevice somewhere he shoves things into them. Last night John found gum stuck to our couch and said "Who...?" I just looked at him, like "you know who."
I love both my boys. I want them both to succeed, but for my eldest, meeting expectations has always been easy. He has an intrinsic understanding of doing the right thing. He doesn't really need me all that much and my younger son, he needs me constantly there...Sometimes I get frustrated with that because it seems like if I am not on him every second he goes all over the map. But when he finally gets it, I am so happy. I had to pour so much of myself into him to get him there and I have worried and struggled with him, so it just means a lot to see him finally get it. The other one, I love also...but I rely on him. If I need him to do stuff, I know I can say...Joe, go take care of this and he will. That matters and means something too. It just means a different something. I don't think this story illustrates that one son is better. I think the father loves both his sons the way they need. The one gets taught a lesson in pride and the other in grace. Both of the kids learn what they need to learn because God is just a parenting genius like that.
I always say that I am so thankful my boys are this way. They will learn from one another and both will meet in the middle (hopefully) when they grow up. That's my 2 cents.
and three more cents makes a nickel...I just rememberred something that happened not too long ago. Joe (my oldest), the mini pharisee, comes in to me and says "you know how you said you don't want us leaving anything on the floor and that when we're done using something we need to put it back?..Well, um Thomas, he left all these markers and papers all over the floor downstairs and it's a mess. It's like al over the floor. You can't even walk in there. I think he may have even drwn on the floor some. Then he just left it and went to play video games. Don't you think he should get a bad consequence for that?" Now my son is coparenting with me?....cute. So I look at my son and this really annoys me because he is acting like he's an equal with me now and as if he never breaks my rules...which, for all the love he has for them, he breaks them too. So I look at him and say "Nope actually, son, you are going to go down and pick all that stuff up and clean it" To which I get the "You're not fair, I didn't make the mess! Why should I have to clean it?" So he's all yelling at me and stomping his little behind around...the bad mother crap rolls out...Yep, I'm a meanie. Anyway, he stomps off and I let him calm hisself down and then I go into his room and say "Do you understand why you got a consequence and your brother didn't?" "Not exactly" "You're brother was being absent minded, but you were intentionally unloving. He forgot something and he wasn't looking to harm me or anyone else. What are you trying to do?" "Get him in trouble" "Is that what love looks like to you?Now you go downstairs and pick all that stuff up"
Now, I am not going to kick the kid around, but he is going to learn something about being an unloving jerk because I love him and I want he and his brother to be able to love one another when I am not around anymore. In that situation I protected both my kids. It would harm Joe the most if he continues on that path and he and his brother are never going to have a loving relationship like that. And Thomas most assuredly will provide many, many more opportunities for correction where messes are concerned.
That's funny, Steve. What conversation do you think is not taking place? Someone psychobabbles aimless nonsense, sandwiches some frivolous bible verses around it, and that is to be brushed under the carpet in the name of Kumbaya Christianity? This a new way for you to talk. Kumbaya, my Lord...Kumbaya. Ohhhhhh, Loooorrrrrrd...Kumbaya. One of the golden calves of American Christianity shoved in my face again. What a surprise.
The conversation I'm talking about is the one that started, "have you ever pondered that in the prodigal son story the father is displeased with the son who lives by the book, does everything 'right', goes to church every time the doors are open, votes for justifiably endorsed candidates, drinks only certain beverages, wears acceptable clothing, embraces (and scorns) everything a decent person 'should', surmises he is aligned with his father's view toward things?" and goes on to be one of the strongest and most beautiful things I've ever read. Solid.
That's what I want to get back to.
And all the smack doesn't phase me a bit. I know what kind of man you are. You've got nothing to prove to me.
Brian here has stepped into the sparring ring. Good form! Says our Master wants us to be still. Says the Master can clean up the church when He's ready.
What say you?
I say both my cheeks are covered in blood, and God is ready. And my heart is set. And it's a one-way trip.
I'm just curious about whatever's stirring inside you to arbite.
I understand your saying the original conversation, original post.
Communication being dynamic leads to detours. The detour arisen here I most assuredly welcome. It has a signature on it that is so easily recognizable. Has to do with what in my opinion is the chief plague in the Body today.
That's why I've diven in head first in true Tarzan form. Let's go.
I am familiar with this jungle. Someone new might be "um, uh, what are we, um, doing?" (nervous smile, sweat bubbles on the forehead)
My response, "We're going to kill a lion. He's seeking to devour us. Come on, it'll be fun!"
Scares the be-Jesus out of most people.
I understand if Brian wants to back out and have nothing to do with it. It's one of the curses of Feministic Christianity all around us. This whole idea that the Way is to be only soft and dainty and fluffy and docile and danger-free and positive and happy and...with no shortage of "Bible verses" to back this lie up.
I'll drop anything for a lion hunt. Drop the fishing nets, let's go.
We can get back to fishing later.
J330. This is a great post. I loved it when I first read it. Now that it has become such a popular spot, I decided to pipe in. When I first read Brian’s original response, I thought it sounded good. I was a little shocked by J330’s response and what he was sensing. However, when Brian responded the second time my thought was “maybe J330 is onto something.
I have often read Jesus’ responses to people and thought he was a little hard, too. So J330 you are in good company.
What I do know is that you, J330, are a man of God and a man of discernment. Since Brian told us about all the good things he has done. I thought maybe I should tell yours. Maybe I should tell about how you have stayed up all night praying for your friends or the strangers you have picked up and taken in. I know you won’t toot your own horn. You will never mention those to validate yourself. So... I guess I will not either. But, the stories I could tell. Some really good ones.
So.... my message to Brian is “I don’t know you at all. Not one bit. I do know J330 though. I know that he has a very strong b.s. detector. I think he can sniff it out, even when the person himself or herself, is unaware of it. My advice to you Brian is, “Be like David”. A man was cursing at him and he said “let him speak perhaps God is trying to say something to me”. (2 Samuel 16) If you feel unjustly spoken harshly to... ask God what’s up.
There was once a man named John. They called him John the Baptist. He made a lot of people mad and he did crazy looking things. But God was using him in a big way. Huge. In fact, Jesus said there was none greater than him born of woman. Wow. Yes, J330 goes off on the institutional church. Sometimes more than makes me comfortable. Is it possible that God has put a message on his heart and he can not contain it. In fact is not supposed to contain it?
Here is Brian's original comment, which he came to the blog today (Mon 3/26) and removed. You've got an open invitation (expressed for the third time now), Brian, to dialogue about it.
This was the first comment posted to this blog entry, which now says "comment deleted":
"Its all about motives. 'Man looks on the outward appearances, but God looks on the heart.' He is looking for a heart that truly desires to know Him, and to walk in friendship with Him. That will be a life of grateful obedience to His ways. There is no way to read the whole NT and deny that, (not that you would). The point, though, is the motive. You can obey out of a heart of loving devotion, or you can obey out of a desire to win God's approval and acceptance. The two can look just alike. One is a sweet aroma to Him; the other is worthless, even a stench in His nostrils. The challenging thing for us humans is that we can't see into people's hearts. God can, but we can't. Its one of those really important differences between Him and us. One day He will bring everything into the light. In the meantime, we just seek Him, and try to let Him have His way in our hearts. And we allow others the freedom to do the same. God will sort it all out. He lets the tares grow right there with the wheat. He's amazing like that. He knows who all the jerks are in the church. The real jerks. The ones with jerk hearts. And yet he patiently lets the jerks live right there among the sincere. It wont always be that way, but for now that seems to be His good pleasure. And for now He tells us to love our enemies. I am guessing that this would include those awful hypocrites in the church down the street. The jerks. Those people used to drive me crazy. They made me mad. They were dishonoring God with their unloving hypocrisy. I was filled with righteous indignation. Then He showed me my own heart, and He called me to love without judgment.
'Love your enemies, and pray for those who despitefully use you.'
'Be still and know that I am God. I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth.'
'Blessed are the peacemakers.'
God can clean up the mess in 'the church' when He is ready. One or two Ananias and Sapphira episodes and He will have everyone's attention. He wants those of us who think we know better to demonstrate the meekness of His kingdom of love, so that He has something to point at when He gets ready to show them what He wants them to be."
John,
I said I wouldn’t be back, but I had to come one more time. I will be brief, as too many words simply offer the opportunity for greater misunderstanding and offense. I apologize for what I wrote to you a few weeks ago. My first comment was out of line, and the second was worse. I wont explain or make excuses. I was offended with you, and I let that cause me to forget your value as a man whom God loves. Sometimes I can get hung up in details. I ask you to forgive me.
Again, I welcome your input. My email is available on my profile. I would be happy to dialogue with you privately. Actually, I hope I hear from you.
I do wish you well.
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